I sat watching it thinking, the gospel truly is foolishness to those who are perishing. The argument was clear and defined, and had no prejudice against a specific person or persons, but had a strong, but loving stance upon it. If this man were of any other belief system, he would have been listened, but this was a specific outright attack upon the Bible.

I have specifically preached on the subject a couple times, as it came about in the text I was preaching through. One of the things people often forget is that homosexuality wasn’t always viewed the same way as it was now, it wasn’t viewed as an alternate lifestyle, nor as something strange in secular culture. As you might know from the Greek philosophers to Roman Soldiers, having unnatural relationship with other men was a normal way of looking at the world. If it’s not wrong by a higher standard, why cut myself off from half the people on the world I could have sex with. In our culture the gay culture has also come to mean often men who act effeminate and it has taken on a new sub-culture in itself. In the past, just as it is in prison today, having sex with another man was used quite commonly as a sexual release, but wasn’t considered “less manly” as it is today. Roman Soldiers had slaves or servants commonly who were only there for this purpose. Greek Philosopher would often choose their students by which young man looked the most handsome and fathers in the day would bring their sons to these men, knowing this would be done to them as part of the process of learning from these men. I think the Biblical influence upon our culture helped define the current view upon it all and over the past couple hundred years of America the view has affected it such that now we see homosexuality as truly being something less manly, which helps us see the sinfulness of it. So that an honorable man who stands before the Word of God and wants to be a man of honor, sees the fault in it. But sin always continues to entice, so ways of justifying it change also. Just like the argument thousands of years before, people used justification that it was natural and normal, so the argument is today also, but it has just changed a bit because of the different viewpoint over the subject. Some say, “It’s not a choice” and to argue with that is offense today as much as saying to a handicap person with lost legs, “it’s a choice, get up and walk”.

I think partly when we allow ourselves to view the world as “accidental, and not see our responsibilities we lose perspective. The issue is much larger than just homosexual acts, it infiltrates our entire viewpoint of the world itself. We are looking at this point from symptoms only, instead of the problem itself. Like physically trying to fix the headache with aspirin, or the cancer with radiation, it’s symptom prevention, but the root problem still exists. We have something wrong that needs repaired, we have a something God-made not working right. I know saying that is “politically incorrect” perhaps. Spiritually we know it’s a heart problem, but sin doesn’t want to look upon its own heart, it wants to blame others. Even the secular social sciences have strong arguments against homosexuality and have done extensive research on the topic, from the family structure, to child-raising, to how homosexuality comes about. The Greeks didn’t even have a word to call this thing we call homosexuality, they just described the acts themselves. It’s now more than just acts, it’s almost a gender in itself, a race within itself and with every disagreement on race or gender, there is always a minority that will play the “victim”. If we play the antagonist we will play into their hands even more.

I think the same ways still apply, love, relationship, and sharing the gospel. If we lose our main focus, then we lose it all. It’s not about just fixing an outward sin, or issue, it’s about reconciling a person to their creator so they can be restored. We live in a culture different than ever before, so we have the “right” to speak up and vote, and we should. We should always remember to do it with our best foot forward and in love. When asked we should give a clear answer, with a wise understand of the whole issue. We cannot be unprepared and wishy washy upon the topics of the culture and we cannot take the politically correct stance just to keep out of trouble, but we should also be aware of the times we should keep quiet when speech would only lead to argument/ debate for no end and silence is the best policy sometimes, as Jesus before Pilate. Good references are also John the Baptist, Stephen, Peter, and the multiple of examples throughout Acts when the time is right to speak up even in the face of adversity.

I have spoken one on one to several people through the years on the topic with love, because I had a relationship with them. I have had numerous students who called themselves gay or lesbian, or bi-sexual. When they are ready they talk about it, they do, and they present it without shame on average. The thing I will tell you is every single one of them had a sexual encounter at a young age/ rape. In specific the last guy I was speaking to aboutwas molested by his female cousin, which was years older than he was at the time. He’s now in his mid-twenties and it happened when he was like 11-12. It created a wall between him and God, a hatred toward God, but it was out of his own overwhelming guilt. He spoke to me because he felt he was bisexual, he really liked girls, but also would really like guys and felt a bit confused over it all. This man also did not have a father in the household growing up. He was very needy for male attention. After a couple years he began to see he just really wanted to be loved by a man, Specifically he wanted his father’s love and was seeking it out through over avenues. Young women do this also. He reconciled with his father and went to visit him earlier this year for the first time. He now no longer believes he’s bisexual, but understands the love of His True Father and the imperfection of His earthly Father, but has become reconciled with both.

It’s not about a lifestyle or a culture it’s about sinful pride. The same sinful pride that trips us up in every area of sin. One of the issues we face and that we must deal with is this idea that we are becoming better and greater over time, smarter and more intelligent than people in the past. (that’s so 18th century, or the like) It’s arrogance in disguise. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking this.

Have I run off on rabbit trails and forgotten to respond to things before? Yes, and I’ve admitted that when you have called me on the carpet for it. But let me ask you to do the same thing. Many of these “social” issue discussions are connected to some questions I ask of you a long time ago of which I have not heard you respond to yet. I’ve not heard you respond to some of the things I’ve pointed out in this discussion. I get the feel that you are blowing parts of my argument way out of proportion and ignoring other points.

So if we’re going to continue this dialog, I’m asking for the “keeping of the head” in all situations as Paul told the young evangelist Timothy and listen to the totality of what I’m saying and respond to the bigger picture of what I’m saying instead of blasting pieces here and there.

1. First in connection with your thinking that I am “choosing this Hill to die on” you missed the big picture. I’ve had this blog in particular for close to 4 years now and this is the FIRST time that I have written here on the subject. One post in 4 years really doesn’t constitute the bulk of my thinking and as my most important issue. Yes, I’ve added links on FB before and have made quick comments, but that is far removed for a formalized teaching like this post.

Honestly I agree with you analogy from Viet Nam. I agree that most of the American mainline Church gets loud about this. But to insinuate that this is what I’m all about is to be in error. Please consider ALL THAT I HAVE written over the past five years or so. Does the weight of my discussion on homosexuality really convey that this is something I’m going to the death mat over?

In fact, as I’ve tried to convey in many occasions, I don’t get into this form of dialog very often and precisely for the reason you mention. This issue has become so politicized and beyond so beyond emotional that I know there are folks who are open to the gospel, but once I mention this discussion their hearts immediately close up. Of course that is true of anything which is convicting. But here, one of the points of Kingdomology is to discuss the fact that authentic Christians are part of God’s kingdom and therefore we live differently. So, what does a Christian do when the topic of Homosexuality comes up? That is the reason why I brought it up this past week. It was HUGE in the media. I brought it up not because I’ve got this one agenda I’m trying to drive to the world, but because it is one agenda that people are talking about and the Bible speaks to. Pt. Being a teacher, I am required to teach and this is the present lesson being asked about in our society. So I’m simply teaching what the Bible says.

2. As American citizens (Christian or non) we have the privilege of lending a hand to making our laws. As a Kingdom citizen living in America we have this right to participate if we want to or feel led of God to do so. The question being, how then do we do that? As noted, the original point of blast off for the discussion was about “making laws” in a land where we get to vote on making those laws. Very cut and dry. So we debate and give the reason for our debate and then vote from our conscience. My point being that we (as kingdom citizens) go and explain reason for how we are going to vote beyond emotions. How would I vote on a policy that involves a social issue, because there is Biblical reasoning behind it even if I don’t understand it all?

3. It has been implied that I or someone else is judging people in an unloving way or that I am mad, mean, or hate someone. That is not the case. Are there “Jerks for Jesus” out there? Yes, and they annoy me as well. But if someone is a jerk; that has more to do with them than the fact or fiction of a position.

4. I still stand by my point of setting “Heart Change” as the goal and have said that for a long time. The answer is not to “force” the law against this or abortion or anything else. But that does not mean that I can’t have a reason for or vote for a law when presented with the opportunity. I believe there ought to be such a law because such a law will bring good actions whether the heart is in the action or not. But, when the heart is changed, no law is required. Why do we have laws? Because people do bad stuff. If people didn’t do bad stuff, laws would not be required. We have laws for the road because people do stupid things behind the wheel.

It is a heart issue. The problem with most of the society is that our hearts say “ME First” I want everything “my” way. This is the big thing on abortion. “I” want to terminate this life in me so “my” life can be better. This is the point here on homosexuality. “I feel these urges” and therefore I want to have them expressed and I want society to endorse and validate the expression of it even to calling it marriage. As noted in a previous discussion, there can be made laws to help people with needs without changing terminology. We don’t have to call it “marriage” to get at needs. Marriage has always been understood as something children will come from. They get married and have kids. The couples in question cannot have kids together. But rather they want the term so that they can feel normal compared to the rest of society. Ultimately it is all selfishness no matter what it is. Part of Authentic Christianity is growing up in Christ where we “deny ourselves” and make “self-sacrifices.”

5. Sam, you are 100% right that these people need Jesus. But what Jesus are you taking them to?

You say that they are “desperate for meaning and acceptance” and I agree. So why don’t you point them to something of absolute truth which does not change. The reason why we have SO many lost young people in our country searching is because our culture rejected the general premise of Divinity and absolute truth 40 to 50 years ago. I don’t remember a time in history where there was such an epidemic of lostness beyond the spiritual sense. But when our culture teaches spiritual beings, which we are, that they are mere products of evolutionary chance then what do you expect to get? If it’s just evolutionary chance, then homosexual marriage makes sense as well as abortion. It’s just survival of the fittest and let’s be honest about it. That’s why Biblical authority is important. Why do we have meaning and purpose? Because God created us with meaning and purpose. Because he created us, he knows how we ought to live. When you take the Bible and absolute truth away, then it all eventually goes up for grabs and we pick and choose which morality works for us.

I’ve tried to unpack this some. But what kind of Jesus are these folks being led to? Yes Grace! But what of Truth? John tells us that Jesus came full of “grace and truth.” The Bible is very clear that truth does matter. Jesus said that true worshiper, the kind that God seeks, are the kind that worship in “Spirit and in Truth.” (John 4) Jesus clearly taught on marriage. As noted, he went back to creation and noted that the reason why Moses permitted divorce in the first place was because their “hearts were hard.” Jesus did not sanction ANY kind of sexual activity outside of that of a man and woman married for life.

So to suggest that gay marriage is ok is to suggest that the Bible and Jesus are wrong. So what do we do with that? You say you want to lead People to Jesus but you also hold a world view that homosexual activity and gay marriage are just as much of God as the rest. How do we reconcile the two premises?

1. We can ignore it as you have done.

2. We can try to explain it away as you have done.

3. We can submit to what Jesus and the text have said and then try to piece the environment around us into that sphere or reference which is what I am attempting to do.

I would submit that if we choose options 1 or 2; then that logically implies that the rest of the Bible is also up for grabs. If we can relativize (if that’s a word) part of the Bible, then we can logically do that to the rest. Then how can we even have an assurance of our salvation which is something you want to give these young people you speak of.

If it is relative, then it all comes down to us trying to be good enough. So how good is good enough? Better than our granddad but maybe not as good as Billy Graham? Where is the line drawn on good enough? Does God grade on a curve; which is what most people think. Then why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Is God even able to see everything? We all miss things in our own lives, how can God catch everything if He is not infinitely wise and there are so many of us.

The fact is that without a standard set by a God “who is above us” it is all relative and subjugated to whoever is making the rules at any set time. Legalists or Lisentousists or whatever is in between.

By offering only part of Jesus one is actually doing them more harm in the long run. Does this mean that we come off and blast people? No . . . no . . . I have tried and tried to convey that I don’t blast people. But like a loving DR. says, “Hey, this is an issue that is going to kill you” sometimes the loving thing is for us to speak the Truth in Love. Maybe my listing of Leviticus 20:13 was not the best move. But the other texts still convey what the Biblical position is on the matter.

Also, I made this comment in a FB conversation a long time ago, but there multiple illustrations of people who thought they were “gay” and then came to Christ and are in heterosexual marriages now. The “gay” men still exhibit what some in our society would consider “effeminate” qualities, but that does not mean that their “being” is gay in the present context. Again note the article by Mark Moore. They had very creative and effeminate DNAs. But when it comes to sexual expression, they found fulfillment in heterosexual marriage.

6. The big drive for your foundation is that homosexuals are “made” like this like a “left handed person” as Eddie suggested. I would suggest the science is still out on that one. Do I know this for certain? No and I admit that. But is your research 100% broad and conclusive or small and directed from those with agenda. It would be interesting to see a non-agendized (if that’s a word to) study of comparison and contrasting of biological and psychological makeup of this discussion. It has only been in the past 30 to 40 years that people have suggested that this was biological instead of psychological

But as noted before, even if this is a “bent” toward a behavior which is much more probable that the “left handed” idea, then that doesn’t mean following up on that bent or pull is good or right. Again from previous discussion, just because a guy has a bent to have sex with every woman he wants does not mean he should or that it is a good thing for him or anyone else.

We are totally “over sexed” as a society. I believe God made sex and he made it good. So many times the Church allows Hollywood to highjack sex. But the truth of the matter is that Sex was God’s idea. Check out the Song of Solomon in the Bible. While part of that is allegorical about Christ and the Church, a big chunk of that was simply Solomon talking about the love life between himself and his wife from Egypt. It’s graphic stuff at times. God sanctioned that. God made sex Good. But that “greatest fulfillment” is reserved for the “greatest commitment” which, according to the Creator, is in heterosexual marriage.

7. On a less big note, as indicated in the original post, much of this in the public arena is about the redefine of terms. If one group can redefine a term used for thousands of years, then why not other groups?

Ok to being to wind things down here as I’m writing too much again, this is not a “Hill that I am going to die on”. I hope by now I have finally made this clear. In the three to four years that Kingdomology has been out this is the first time I have written about it. Yes, I’ve made quick links on FB which have turned into discussions, but I’ve not blogged about it.

No, this is not something I am going to camp out on in the big picture. HOWEVER, part of the blog is describing what real Kingdom life is like. Part of authentic Christianity is our willingly submitting ourselves to the authority of Christ. Christ speaks to Christians through the Holy Spirit in their hearts. How do we know the still small voice of God verses our own voice or the voice of the evil one? Well one was is to ask if there is something going on that contradicts the revealed will of God in the written will of God; the Bible. Homosexual marriage and expression through homosexual acts clearly contradicts the will of God just like ANY sexual act outside the bonds of heterosexual marriage. So in the whole realm of teaching is it not right to touch on this like any other aspect of life?

Sam, you accuse me of “prioritizing” this issue more than loving the lost. That is not accurate. I would wonder if you have prioritized this issue more than what is best for these folks you speak of. Do either of us have all the answers? Well I admit that I don’t. But my take is to try to elevate the Word as the standard and then try to figure out life around that. My understanding is that your take is to force the Word into fitting into the world around you. When things come up which (at present gay marriage) you don’t like, you simply ignore them.

Another illustration of what is really going on here is beyond homosexuality. That is the major modern practice of couples living together. This has gone on for a long time. In every church I’ve been in we have made friends with a man and a woman who are living together without being married. I don’t say I’m better than them. I don’t tell them they can’t come to worship services. I don’t “hate” them. But I don’t say, “Hey this is no problem at all. Just do what you want and what feels good.” When the time is right, or it comes up in teaching, I simply teach what God says about sexuality and marriage. When confronted with this truth, yes, some get mad and leave. But some will always reject the things of God. But others fall under the influence of the Holy Spirit and get right with God. My job is not to “make” someone do what is right, but to speak the truth in love.

Part of the tension here is between all of us as citizens in America trying to agree on public policy and my personal daily role as a Christian relating to people.

Anyway, far too much writing here. But PLEASE take in the whole scope of what I’m saying. I don’t hate anyone. I don’t want to harm anyone. I actually want people to know that Jesus died on the Cross for them and that he loves them and has a purpose for them. But unless I speak the truth about sin, it can never be dealt with and people will live with a placebo all the time making God into their own image.

As Always, peace.

In your rebuttal above, you say that “The original discussion is about making public policy,” but in the original blog post you say that, “the real answer is one of heart change and NOT policy development.” I am trying to tell you, as one in the trenches, as one not insulated in the “I know three gay people” world… You are losing their hearts! You are losing a generation. You are losing them. Whatever policy victories you score are not worth the damage you are wreaking on the spiritual lives of millions of would-be Christians. And I’m not just talking about the gay ones. The rest of this younger generation sees their gay friends and family members being targeted by the church and it turns them away from God.

People are desperate for love. They are desperate for meaning and acceptance. They don’t know it, but they need God. They need Jesus and they need the community and support found in his church. Celebrating gay marriage bans and condemning politicians who support gay marriage, these actions drive those people away from the church and thus, drive them away from a relationship with Jesus.

You may be winning a few battles, but you are losing the real war.

I am a big fan of military history (in no small part, due to reading all those books your dad always had around). In Vietnam, the United States Armed Forces never lost a battle, but they lost the hearts and minds of the people, so they lost the war. If you chose this hill to die on, you may win every battle in every state, but the cost will be too high and you will lose the war for a generations’ souls.

I honestly think that were Satan designing a way to keep this younger (under forty) generation from coming to know God, he could not do better than having good passionate Christians writing blog posts quoting the “stone the gays to death” parts of the Bible.

Maybe the hearts that needs to be changed are not in the gay community and Liberal America. Maybe the hearts that need to be changed are in our churches.

Yes it’s a dangerous tight rope. Speaking the Truth in Love is the balance. Do I always express myself in the best light? No, for that I’m sorry. But to never say anything would also be wrong.

Anyway, as always . . . Peace!

1. The position is not about brining someone to Christ. The original discussion is about making public policy in a country where we all get to vote our conscience.

2. Again you and others imply that because I state a position based on Biblical truth that I am somehow coming off more self-righteous or hating others and driving them away from Christ. That is like saying the Dr. must hate us because he has the gall to point out that we have cancer and it is killing us.

3. You are making my job harder. I am all about grace and will be the first person to point out all the sin in my own life. Jesus was all about grace, which is why he went to the cross for us. But Jesus also called us to “repent” of our sin, “deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him.” If a homosexual came to a church where I was teaching I would not stop them in the hall and say, “look buddy, you need to repent!” I would systematically teach through the text and eventually the subject would come up. At that time I would simply instruct as to what God teaches on this issue like any other issue. As noted before, envy, jealously, adultery, and others are just as much sin as this one.

But I would teach the “whole council” of God as the Bible directs. Authentic Christianity is not about religious legalism to a manmade system. It is also not licentiousness where anything goes as long as we just “love” each other. Part of the New Testament was written by Paul under divine inspiration to correct such issues. Note Romans 6:1-3 and especially 1 Corinthians 5. One of the reasons why the CHURCH in the west is weak is because there is nothing required of them and grace is abused all the time.

For a person to come to Christ, they have to come humbly in repentance of sin. So by our purposefully ignoring sin it actually does them a disservice.

The point being made by our Founders is that our rights are conferred by God, not men. That’s one reason we don’t have a king (other than Jesus). Therefore, it seems we should be mindful of what the author of our rights has to say about homosexuality. Steve did an awesome job of summarizing that, so I feel no need to elaborate here.

The legalizing of same-sex marriage is a political sideshow with an ulterior motive: the question is not to “right a wrong” but to normalize homosexuality in America. A homosexual can already leave their estate to anyone they want to in their will, they can designate at the hospital who they want to have visit them and who will make decisions on their behalf if they become incapacitated. There is nothing that prevents same-sex couples from having a relationship.

There are some tax implications and other legal “benefits” given to same-sex couples that they don’t have access to and I would have to say so sorry. There are plenty of government “goodies” that I pay for but don’t have access to. Like most of them. Because I can’t consume every government program is not a good reason to lay on a bad law.

I am trying to live my life in such a way that I am showing people who need God in their lives that my church and my religion has a place for them, that I am a sinner and will not cast that first stone, that I am more concerned with the plank in my own eye than the speck in theirs’, that Jesus loves them THROUGH me , and therefore I will not deny them their rights (“options”… whatever) nor dictate their behavior. In living this way, I am attempting to bring them to the safety and assurance of eternal life.

You are making my job much harder.

* It is true that most societies historically have not rooted marriage in religion. Yet still, ALL societies have restricted marriage to men and women. Why is that? Well, it’s because they understood that marriage was the foundational building block for society. It’s where children are created and nurtured. And since it takes a man and a woman to create children, every society in the history of the world recognized marriage as a relationship between men and women, not same-sex couples.

* Some say that Christians should not legislate their morality. But SOMEONE’S morality will get legislated. Those who support same-sex “marriage” believe morality requires allowing same-sex couples to “marry.” Why should they alone have the opportunity to legislate their vision of morality?

* Some say that people ought not to try to take away others’ rights. This presupposes, though, that same-sex couples have a “right” to “marry.” Where is that right found? I suggest it’s not found in the Constitution but only in the minds of those who want to marry. That is, there is no Constitutional right to marry. “Marriage” is something that historically in our Country was rooted in religion, and which the State recognizes. For the full length of the Republic our Country has recognized only marriages between men and women. But I suggest that the State need not recognize ANY marriage. None of our founding documents enumerate a right to marry.

* Some say that people with homosexual urges should have all the same rights as everyone else. And indeed, they do! As I just said, “marriage” is not a right. Rather, it is something that historically in our Country was rooted in religion, and which the State recognizes. But if marriage WERE a right (which it is not), any person with homosexual urges would have the same “right” to marry that I have — for each of us, the State agrees to recognize our marriage to a member of the opposite sex. What those pushing same-sex “marriage” want is SPECIAL rights, beyond the rights all citizens already have.

* Some argue that the definition of marriage has changed. I disagree. I happen to believe that God defined marriage, once and for all, as a relationship between a man and a woman. Saying that the definition has changed does not make it so. Redefining it will be problematic for our society and will hurt children. Our laws already hurt children: we let people divorce for any reason or none at all. Yet studies consistently show that children do best when they are raised in stable homes with a mom AND a dad. Yet, if we redefine marriage as including same-sex couples, we deprive children placed in their homes of what studies indicate they need for their best chance to thrive. Now, I know that many single parents do a great job raising their kids, and also that many people with homosexual desires are wonderful parents. There are exceptions to every rule. But I’m talking about the rule; that is, what studies indicate are generally true. And generally, it’s true that children do best with mom AND dad. Even the President has spoken about the hole that was left in his heart by not having his dad around. Why do we want to do that to kids?

* Finally, some say that those who oppose same-sex marriage “hate” and are full of anger at those with homosexual desires. That argument, though, is just silly. Do those who oppose me marrying my sister, or my dog, hate me? Of course not. They oppose me doing those things because they believe it would be bad for me, and bad for society. The same is true here. Most of us who oppose same-sex “marriage” believe such recognition of same-sex relationships would be bad for the same-sex people themselves and also bad for society at large. And so we don’t want the law changed to recognize same-sex “marriage.” It’s no different, really, than how we don’t want the law changed to, say, legalize crack cocaine. We believe crack cocaine to be bad for those who use it and bad for society at large. We oppose same-sex “marriage” for the same reason. But we don’t hate those with homosexual urges. Indeed, I have friends and even a family member who have homosexual urges. I love people with homosexual urges. But that doesn’t mean that I should support what I believe will be bad for them and for our society.

Blessings and peace to you all.